Plus of course when it's a meat-eater bringing up the argument, it's like "dude are YOURS leather? yes? they are? so what the fuck are you bringing mine up? it isn't sincere, it's not like you are genuinely disturbed by the fact that I "may" be wearing leather."

The same is true when meat-eaters bring up the bugs killed in grain production (and THEY eat grain)
or the killing of vegetables (and THEY eat vegetables)
or the worse: the killing of bacteria and... (well you can figure that one out ;-)

It is used as a defense mechanism, and I would like to put forth the proposition that while it is annoying and frustrating for us, it is good. It is much better than no response, if we respond in the way that MdJ and Anthonwy did, it is wonderful...because at least they are thinking.


BUT in this case David is a long time animal rights activist, so this comment is more serious to me...not to turn this too much into a group session (or to call you out David) but I noticed a similar slant to your views in the animal rights tribe a few months back.

It appears to be a situation of general malaise and as a community I think we need to reach out to you David.

Don't let the man get you down brother, we're here to support you :-)

David, if you need any support or just to vent about frustrations or stuff, please don't hesitate to contact me via PM, I have been an animal rights activist for less than 5 years but I am quite active and finally finding a very positive place in animal rights. So if I can do anyhting to help a hero like yourself who has been fighting the hardest fight for so many years let me know.

I agree 100% with what Anthonmy said about reducing our own footprint and buying organic, local, crop-based, and hopefully soon stock-free veganic ...we are all ON THE WAY.

and the world is changing for the better EVERY DAY. :-)

The main issue to me is one of intent. If we deliberately try to do the best that we can that is all that should be asked os us.

AND we should be careful not to fall into too often misinterpretation of the judeo-christian ethic of compassion distorted into meaning "turning a blind eye" or "acceptance" that to have compassion for someone we must not point out, attempt to change or help or even judge, we must accept their "sin"

ie: we should have compassion towards sinners (or in our case we should have compassion towards non-vegan humans) which means not condemning and sometimes even condoning what they do.

This is wrong. and it is a dangerous misinterpretation that actually turns good intentions into evil.

Compassion means to feel compassion for someone, it does not imply accepting or letting them do what they do. We can forgive them for what they do, and still try to help them to stop doing what they do. Compassion means to understand from where they come, but it does not mean to justify or become complicit of their crimes.

After all we need to have compassion for the animals as well. It is important that we remember that we belong to the human species, but if a human wants to do something wrong to another species we should NOT help him (and saying nothing while he does this thing is the same as helping him) just because he is human.

Too often meat-eaters try to convince us that if we do not RESPECT their choice to kill that we are being disrecpectful of them, but we aren't. I don't need to respect a pedophile's choice to rape, or a thief's choice to steal, likewise I will not respect a meat-eater's choice to kill.

and I will still have compassion for him, but as long as he kills I will be there to convince him by any peaceful means necessary to stop.

Because they see CHOOSING meat as a passive choice and it is is not. It is an ACTIVE PREJUDICE. And we must ALWAYS be there to remind them of that, because the animals can't; so we need to.

the last thing is to remember that it is in THEIR (the animal abusers) best interests for us to second-guess ourselves and doubt our convictions. This is how they fight. Trust me the "bad guys" aren't second guessing or doubting themselves, they are just pushing forward with new campaigns to sell more burgers and destroy more land and kill more animals.

When we let their crap arguments slow us down, they win.